Intelligent Design vs. Reality

OK, so there’s this newfangled thing out there called “Intelligent Design”.

The basic nature of it is “Hey, this is so complex that we dont really understand it, so it must be God!”

While it is commendable that the Intelligent Design fanatics in this way admit that they really aren’t very intelligent at all, it’s pretty serious when they want to try to teach it in elementary school to kids who aren’t bound to know better.

Anyway, Creationism .. yes, that’s what it is, no matter what else you call it. A turd is still a turd, even if you stick it in a candy wrapper. It’s no tastier for it.

I’ve had the oppotunity once to date one of these creationists – well date is probably a stretch, because after discussing this on the first date, there really wasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that there would be a second date. See what I did there? Used a reference to hell in a blog entry really very anti-religion. Well ok, it’s not really anti-religion, it’s just anti-nonsense. Anti-religion is scheduled for next week.

Back to the issue. I asked her about various things after it became apparent that she believed that the earth is 6.000 years old, and that the bible is in EVERY detail a factual and accurate account of events (at this point I thought it was kind of funny so I played along slightly .. by not rolling on the floor laughing at least).

My first question was about fossils. If the earth is only 6000 years old, why are we digging up fossils of extinct (and non-extinct I would suppose) species all over the world? Her answer was “God put them there”. Ok, how can you argue with that? Why did God put them there then? “I dont know, but he did”.

My next question on this withering date was about carbon dating.. here we have this accurate scientific method that you can prove works, and that tells us that the world is a SMIDGE over 6000 years old. She had no answer for that one, she just mumbled something about God making it look that way.

I didn’t really think there was much point to asking her why we have climate records from the arctic ice sheets from hundreds of thousands of years ago, but I did anyway. Again, God made that.

If God is just making all this stuff up for us to work out, then…

RIDDLE ME THIS, BATMAN: If God made everything, and everything is according to his great Intelligent Design (yes you thought I’d forgotten this wasn’t about religion didn’t you), then God also made me to not believe in his sorry sadistic ass. Why would anyone with that kind of ability care one little bit that some inferior creature believed in him anyway?

That is akin to me getting an antfarm, just so the ants will believe in me, fear me, worship me. It’s … strangely alluring, except ants wouldn’t give a flying fuck about me. Except maybe the very insecure ants who really weren’t able to trust their own abilities, or the very lazy ants who really didn’t want to take any responsibility themselves… they might go, “You up there, yes you, could you do this for me, cos I can’t be buggered myself?” or “Hey this is all YOUR fault I’m starving, it has nothing to do with the fact that I’m too dumb and lazy to actually go find some food myself”.

Anyway, if we are all parts of this wonderful creation .. sorry, design, then God will have no trouble with us annihilating the church, putting everyone believing in him on a big raft in the Pacific Ocean with no food, one knife, and a book on cannibalism, and going on with our merry little lives. Well, hey, everything is according to his design, so that part would be just another scripted chapter in his design manual. We could all wave at them and yell “Your God made us do this!” and smile at them as they drifted off.

Then we, the enlightened ones you could call us, could worry about the actual problems of the world, and approach them from a scientific angle so we can solve them, instead of just praying they get solved for us.

We don’t understand, so it must be God! … No dumbass, you don’t understand because you haven’t tried to work it out, or you’re too dumb to do so. Both reasons are probably applicable in most cases.

Certainly I weep for the children who will be taught this, unwrapping the candy and finding… a turd.

You can get away with believing anything as long as you say God wants you to.

19 thoughts on “Intelligent Design vs. Reality

  1. Gods servant

    if the earth wasnt created, how was it made? do you beleive in the “BIG BANG”? Sounds kind of rediculous to me, and if you do beleive in the big bang, what caused it? An exploding cell? whered the cell come from? does man have proof that evolution is true? no, of course not, but is there proof of God’s existance? no, there isnt, so basically, both require a persons faith to beleive in them. Do you know the sun is shrinking? wouldnt that mean a billion years ago it would have been huge and the world would be non existant?Did you know the moon is moving furtheer from the earth, and since the moon controlls the earths tides, if it existed billions of years ago and the sun wasnt causing trouble, wouldent there be flooding? you make absolutely no sense.

  2. Bagheera Post author

    Seeing as I’m not an astro-physicist, I’ll give this my best shot based on common sense and the laws of physics.

    Everything that has a mass, has a gravitational pull.

    Everything that has a gravitational pull, attracts everything else to some degree.

    That means that everything with a mass attracts everything else – and over time, everything will be moving towards eachother.

    The current expansion of the universe is a stronger force than the gravitational pull at this time, but as momentum gets lost over time (reduced by the gravitational force amongst probably other things), gradually the universe will come to retract again. When this happens, eventually it will condense into a super dense mass.

    In this state, the energy will be so high, that it will overcome the gravitation, and cause an expansion event.

    In a very real sense, the universe is a giant beating heart, with ebb and flow, we just happen to have started our existance in the flow part of the cycle.

    As for making sense, I think you might want to re-read what you wrote, it’s all over the place. The sun shrinking is perfectly explainable, it does not mean it was originally infinitely large.

    Once again however, you have proven my point. People who believe are likely to be people who do not understand. I don’t mean to make this personal, and by all means if you can explain your position better, I’m all ears.

    I mock intelligent design because the idea is ridiculous – and even worse, because people want to teach it to kids as “scientific fact”. That scares the crap out of me. If there will be an end to civilization, it will be the generation where there are no longer scientists, because they are all ‘believers’ instead.

  3. Bagheera Post author

    I’ll take another example:

    “Did you know the moon is moving furtheer from the earth, and since the moon controlls the earths tides, if it existed billions of years ago and the sun wasnt causing trouble, wouldent there be flooding?”

    There are a couple of things very wrong with this question. First, the moon is a factor in the earths tides. So is the sun. IF the moon was much closer previously, yes the tides would have been bigger. So what? We weren’t here.

    Second, most scientists at this point as far as I’m informed, agree that the moon is a celestial object that was at some point caught in the earths gravitational pull. When that point was is unknown as far as I know.

    It was NOT orbiting the earth much much closer than it is now, rather it was not there at all to begin with.

    Where you seem to lose track of the science, is your “If this is the rate something happens now, it must have happened at this rate forever” – that’s just not the case. For instance the earths gravitational pull will gradually lose more and more grip on the moon as it moves further away, speeding up the process and making the rate at which the moon moves away greater than before. Nothing is really static 🙂

    Again, not an astro-physicist, if one is reading, I’d love the accurate explanation 😉

  4. outrageousboy

    i can see from your explanations and arguments that you have learned/researched one-sided scientific evidence on evolution and other theories that credit the formation of the universe to accident. Those theories have major holes, you should look into researching creationism theories. And you also failed to address a previous commenter’s point about how this incredible pulsing mass got there in the first place. And on a slightly separate note, still regarding creation, the primordial soup doesn’t stand trial very well. The only model of a potential combination of chemicals that could have created the amino acids that became the first living cell, that ANY scientist has ever been able to come up with, is now false and dated because the atmospheric conditions that created it were proven to not have existed during that time. There is no proof that a primordial ooze could have accidentally created a living cell in the first place, it isn’t possible. And even if it were, evolution credits ALL of the diverse creatures we have today to mutation from one common ancestor. Mutations however, very rarely are beneficial to the mutated species, they are usually neutral or negative, and when they ARE positive, they never create NEW parts/organs, they only eliminate old ones. For evolution as a theory to be true, and for all species to have evolved from one common ancestor, it would require incomprehensible billions of positive significant mutations that, in many cases, created NEW parts and organs. There goes evolution. THAT is where God comes in, not out of “not understanding.” God created several creatures that became the species we have today, which, through natural processes, diversified them, which explains related species.

  5. Adrian

    Well, “outrageous boy”, first I’ll commend you on the considerable amount of thought that you put into your response. However, there is one fundamental flaw that unfortunately nullifies your argument. What your arguing, that “God created several creatures that became the species we have today, which, through natural processes, diversified them, which explains related species.”, isn’t very cohesive with what’s written in the Bible, is it? The earth, and all that is inside of it, was created in six days according to the Bible. Up until the discovery of fossils nobody knew about natural, diverisfying processes that lead to new species. People believed, no, people KNEW (b/c of their religion of course) that everything that was on the Earth now was what God put on the earth 6 thousand years ago. After the indisputable discovery of extinct species, and the formation of very convincing theories that species through natural processes are diversified to create different, related species (which you yourself support), people explain this away by accrediting it to God. What’s impractical about accrediting this to God? Well, let’s see…. there’s nothing about any of this in the Bible. It is equally as credible to attribute these natural diversifying processes to the will of the Greek gods, or the Hindu gods, or Buddha. Whatever science cannot definitevly prove can be attributed to any supernatural phenomena. Thinking from the other side of the fence, I suppose one supporting your case would say that just b/c it’s not in the Bible that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, or it’s not accurate. After all, the Bible was written centuries ago by ppl who had no comprehension (relative to our own) of how the world around them works. God created the universe in six days and that was that. Well, first of all, if the Bible was written by ppl who don’t posses even a fraction of modern knowledge concerning the way the world works (climate, natural disasters, “natural, diversifying processes”, etc.), why would their interpretation of how the world came to be (not to mention all those bold assertions about humans coming from one man and wowman, the latter of which was created from the first’s rib) be given any credence at all? Secondly, if something being omitted from the bible doesn’t have any bearing on it’s accuracy (or, “just b/c it’s not in the bible doesn’t mean it’s not true”, in reference of course to your natural diversifying processes that creates diverse organisms), then why does it’s inclusion in the Bible have any bearing on it’s accuracy (or, “just b/c it is in the bible doesn’t mean that it’s true”).
    Wow, I said there was a fundamental flaw, that should require a brief rebuttal. So, what I mean is that from your response I can tell that you’re an intelligent person. From your argument, I get the strong impression that you realize the earth is more than 6,000 years old (if you dont, then I have wasted a large portion of my time). This is easily deducible from your concluding assertion that “God created several creatures that became the species we have today, which, through natural processes, diversified them, which explains related species.” Now, since there are billions of extremely diverse types of organisms today, I’m sure you know that it would take considerably longer than 6,000 years for them all to evolve (for lack of a better word) from the “several” species that God put here in the first place. So, just by the mere admission that the Earth is older than 6,000 years you are nullifying the accuracy and credibility of your religion in the practical scheme of things. According to your religion God created the Earth 6,000 years ago. Using that same religion to support anything different is blatantly contradictory, and therefore not altogether convincing (to put it gently). However, I suppose, since there is no way to definitively prove otherwise, that the authors of the Bible were really on to something and simply got some of the facts mixed up, or just hadn’t discovered all the pieces of the puzzle. However, the same could be said for absolutely any other religion (including the Flying Spaghetti Monster), idea, or theory that has every existed in the history of the earth.

  6. Bagheera Post author

    I would like to briefly comment on your post, outrageousboy, as adrian was kind enough to spare me a lot of typing saying most of what I would have said anyway.

    Thank you both for insightful and coherent posts by the way 😉

    First, yes I have researched “the one sided scientific evidence” – since frankly there is no other side of scientific evidence. Creationism isn’t science, and that’s the crux of the matter. It is faith dressed up in formal attire to appear to be going to the same party as science at least.

    If you can provide ANY proof that creationism MIGHT be right, and that evolution MIGHT be wrong, I’m listening. So far all the evidence we have does support evolution, and none even indicates that creationism might be the right answer.

    I’d also like to point out that my original objection is that creationism is taught as science. I’m not thereby validating evolution as a theory, although it’s currently the best one we have, I’m only invalidating as science. Creationism isn’t even a theory, it’s a hypothesis – there isn’t even circumstantial evidence that might qualify it as theory.

    Finally I’ll add that I’m very happy you call it creationism and not intelligent design, as the two are clearly the same thing. I appreciate honesty, even if it’s still basically figments of some drunk persons imagination from 6000 years ago.

    Just think how far we could have come, had religion not played such a major part in stifling scientific research since at least the 1300’s. If people thinking the sun was the centre of our solar system weren’t jailed or killed for heresy… why I might even be getting on my flying Delorean to work 😛

    I’m not aware of the holes in evolution you mention. Mutations do add to organisms, not only detract. Otherwise explain 11 toed cousins 😉 There was also a very interesting experiment done on fruit flies within the last few years (I don’t have the reference handy, since I didn’t think I would ever need it really).

    The set up was like this. A colony of fruit flies, who mate/fertilize eggs relatively early in life, were prevented from procreating until much later in their life cycle than usual. Thus only the longest lived and longest fertile got to have offspring. This process was repeated a number of times, which was fairly easy since their lifespan is so short. The end result after all the iterations were fruit flies that had tripled their lifespans.

    Another experiment was also recently published, demonstrating the ability to create simple organisms from a primordeal soup as you call it, using I believe radiation techniques. I didn’t catch much of the details but it should be googleable (I suppose that’s a word by now).

    The thing is it’s just hard to visualize that new things emerge, because it usually happens on such a huge time scale, and the average Joe doesn’t have many options of seeing it for himself.

    I think that will do me for now, the sun is out after all, and still floating at the centre of the universe last I looked 😛

    I would, however, as Adrian also points out, be curious to know what makes you think that it’s _your_ god that is right, and not some other god? Personally I think I would subscribe to the Norse mythology if I had a pick – the earth being the made from the dead flesh of the jotun Ymir.

  7. Pat

    i love it
    one extra point: The bible was written by the same people who thought the earth was flat.

  8. Owen

    To address the question how some supposedly very improbable things could happen, there is a nice explanation coming from quantum physics, the Multi Universe interpretation, basically there exist all universes that can exist no Mather how improbable so to say side by side. And we simply have the luck to exist in one where the improbable things happened that ware necessary for our existence.

  9. Matthew

    I think it is important to know that the sun is not shrinking but is expanding and that the this expanding sun is both pulling on the moon as well as the earth losing its “grip”.

    i think it is also important to not ridicule another persons belief systems. for example, most christians see Islam as stupid because if your do something in the name of Alah (however it is spelt) he will be granted 72 virgins upon his death. is christianity not the same, if one believes in god and does something in the name of god he or she is granted everlasting happiness. its the same thing with scientology, we ridicule them as we believe that their belief system is stupid because they think that some big thingy me bob came and put us on the earth. if you not making the connection there is something wrong with you. in all most religions are created, yes created, with a similar kind of model. Some big thing put us here, we should all belive in him/her/it and he/she/it will save us from destruction.

    in regards to the sun shrinking, there is proof that the sun is expanding as temperatures on closer planets(i.e mercury) keep rising every year. also no one yet has mentioned carbon dating. yes im talking about the Carbon 14 isotope which has a half life that extends beyond six thousand years, thus immediately disproving the earth being sixthousand years old.

    in the end it doesnt really matter what happens with this debate because as soon as there is a breakthrough from evolution scientists, there will be a creation “scientist” who will be there in a second saying god put it there or sum shit like that.

    i thought i might add, even though it will probably discredit me, I am a seventeen year old Agnostic bloke. that being said i do have my physics teacher guiding me along the way. this is a man who goes to church every sunday but laughs at the fact that creationism seeks to be a science.

  10. Christian

    I have one big problem with evolution.

    In science I have learned that it is impossible to get a living thing out of one or more non-living things. Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but that means that there had to be something living in the beginning for the Big Bang Theory to work at all. Gasses are not living, so how could they create Earth with every living thing on it, let along the whole universe? I am a believer in Creationism, and what scares me is that this law is being taught in school science classes, along with evolution… Isn’t that contradictory? How can evolution be taught at all if it is true that you cannot get a living thing out of one or more non living things.

  11. Danny

    I have been taught in school that it is impossible to get a living thing out of one or more non living things. If that is true, then how can scientists even consider evolution? After all, now correct me if I am wrong, gasses are not living, and supposedly gasses are what made our universe.

  12. Danny

    And as far as carbon dating, that is not a very reliable source of finding out how old something is. I have read (I’m not sure how reliable the source is) on a website or a book, I don’t remember which, that scientists have carbon dated a pig, a living pig. It came out to show that the pig was thousands of years old.

  13. Tray

    Wow, you creationists really have no idea what science is. First off, you should decide if you are arguing against evolution, creation of the universe, or abiogenesis. Pick a topic. Abiogenesis and initial (nanoseconds) of the beginning of the universe are topics that still have a lot of research to go. Evolution on the other hand is a solid established fact. You guys debating if evolution happens is the equivalent of still debating if the earth is flat.

  14. Bagheera Post author

    As far as carbon dating goes, you’re right, there are many variables that are not entirely mapped yet, because atmospheric carbon-14 levels vary a lot more than previously thought (variations in cosmic radiation and solar activity have a large impact). However, beryllium-10 dating is pretty accurate to my knowledge, and it still shows the earth being just a smidge over 6000 years old … about 4.5 billion years over in fact.

  15. Interzero

    Life is too short to be worrying and argueing about whether or not someone did or did not create life as we know it. Just live it and enjoy it. Personally, I do think we were created, and in creation, evolution is just another part of its designed process. I am not quoting any particular religion, just my opinion. 🙂

  16. Mike R

    Hey y’all, I’m a Biologist, and I believe in God and evolution, the Big Bang, and abiogenesis! I’m a Catholic “Evolutionist,” as you silly YECs put it. Now, there doesn’t appear to be much that you all can grasp, but consider this: God is one hell of an architect, from the subatomic level to the unimaginable vastness of space. And IF His way is the truth and the light and the good-golly goshness and whatever, why the hell would He arrange things to make things to be not as they appear? Yeah, yeah, you dimwit Bible-thumpers, “God works in mysterious ways, bla bla bla.” But you can go shove your library of desert stories down your throats. The Christian God is Not and will Never be one of deception. Who is the guy in Christianity that operates on confusion, doubt, lies, and deceiving?? Oh yeah, Satan. Get owned, Creationists. I’ll see you in Hell. 😀
    Oh a short side-note. The universe is expanding but the momentum is actually INCREASING. . . yeah. Looks like a cosmic heart-attack. We’re done for.

  17. JohnS

    I realize that this thread is very old but as I just came across it I thought I would add my 2 cents in case anyone reads this.

    First I want to remind you that according to Aristotle, no one arrives at a conclusion based on facts alone, but their experiences, background etc. all are factors. The mention that if there are any facts that you’ll listen I think is somewhat self deceiving but let’s test it 🙂

    Your fist question was about fossils. Did you know that the geologic column does not exist anywhere in the world? Yes fossils have been found everywhere, from fish in the dessert and clams on the tops of mountains to mammals on the ocean floor. Did you know that evolutionary processes cannot explain any of this? The Bible however offers an explanation in the flood. If the entire world was flooded as the Bible says then things like continental drift, rapid freezing of mammals, formations of salt domes, weird locations of fossils etc. all make sense.

    You mentioned Carbon dating,,, You say that this is an accurate system, but did you know that it has dated freshly killed mollusks to be over 1 million years old? Look it up! In fact there are many people that believe this system is completely useless. Furthermore, did you know that scientists date the fossils that they find by the layer of earth that they are found in but they also date those same layers by the fossils found in them? Logic 101, what is the validity of circular reasoning?

    You mentioned that the earth started in a big bang (btw, your description was fairly accurate) where did the stuff that exploded originally come from? The laws of science does not allow for the creation of materials out of nothing… Nevertheless you believe (a matter of faith) that it was there and suddenly exploded. Question according to the law of the conservation of momentum a spinning object that breaks apart will produce objects spinning in the same direction as the source. Unless you can explain why the laws of motion and specifically angular momentum didn’t apply back then, I would ask you why we in our solar system alone 2 of the planets are spinning backwards… Science offers 0 explanation… (You have to accept it as a matter of faith)

    As a side note, are you familiar with the statistical probability of creating a universe that supports life by accident? When it was calculated it was so far beyond the determined ratio of mathematical impossibility that according to the best of our knowledge of mathematics could never have occurred. Look it up 🙂

    You talk about the age of the earth, you are well informed on the arguments but I think that you’ve drawn the wrong conclusion. Your explanation of the moon is interesting but have you looked at the amount of dust found on it? Scientists were actually worried about the result of landing on the moon when it would be buried in millions of years of space dust and to their shock the amount of dust there only accounted for about 6,000 years of existence… Interesting, what do you suppose happened to all the rest of the dust? The size of the sun, the speed of the Earth’s rotation, the amount of salt in the sea, the existence of arms on spiral galaxies, the amount of salt in the dead sea ect. all point to a young earth of about 6,000 year. Interesting isn’t it?

    But let me ask you some questions since you say that there is no God. You say there is no evidence or you would believe. LOL, did you know that there is no evidence for evolution yet you believe in it. (And before you try to criticize this to much I would like to inform you that there is currently a reward being offered at drdino.com of a quarter million dollars to anyone with one single shred of evidence for evolution. Not only that but it has been offered for over a decade! There just isn’t any evidence for it.) Why do you believe in a theory that has 0 evidence? Sounds like faith to me…

    Did you know that Darwin’s book actually had its name shortened because it wouldn’t be acceptable in today’s culture as racist? Go look it up! In fact the theory of evolution was the foundation for socialism, racism, and a lot of other terrible regimes? When you hold a newborn baby or look into the eyes of your special someone do you think of them as a random accident? Why choose a theory that says you are a mistake? The fittest survive, and man makes his own morality. In fact there is a new book out now (forgive me I can’t remember the name) but it argues that if we are all just animals how dare we judge someone else’s actions as immoral! You wouldn’t accuse your dog of sinning? We are the product of nature, we follow our impulses, and the fittest survive. Hitler was an example of a person who wholeheartedly believedthat philosophy.

    I believe however that human life is sacred. That we are created in the image of God, and that we are loved,we have purpose, and that we are hear for a reason. Tell me how do you come to peace with yourself if you think that you are only an accident, and that when you die you will simply cease to exist?

    I challenge you to think about it…
    JohnS

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *